Well said, Steve! VERY well said. Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much effect it's gunna' have. If - after 6 years - they are still repeating such disproven and erroneous lies as "war for oil", "AWOL", "Without protective equipment", "War based on lies", etc.... they are SO blinded by Michael Moron, Move-on crap, that they can't even engage in reasonable discussion. For the record......
"War based on lies" - try this website and hear what the DEMS said back in 2002 and before.. ( http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=66003231 )
"War for oil" - same canard used by Dems during Gulf War (still no American Oil wells in Kuwait-guess they were wrong on that one) furthermore, we could have had much more oil, cheaper, and without Bush's hit to opinion polls by simply lifting the embargo. If he had wanted cheap oil for his 'oil buddies' he could have done what France and Russia did - break the embargo. That would have taken Clintonlike ethics and integrity Bush just doesn't have.
"Lack of Protective Gear" At the beginning of the war, it was not obvious the weapon of choice for insurgents and Al Queda would be IED's - afterall, they didn't use them in Afghanistan. So, as with ALL wars, the plans going in dont survive first engagement (to paraphrase a great general). As the insurgents' tactics changed, so did ours.
"Declaring forms of torture okay" - once again, a mis-statement twisting, or showing ignorance of FACTS. Bush NEVER condoned torture and asked for the legal standing of such tactics as waterboarding - IN RESPECT TO DETAINEES from Iraq and Afghanistan - Attny Gonzales correctly said The Geneva Convention has restrictions in Article 1 - Part 1 --- namely, ANYONE not wearing a uniform recognizable at a distance OR not a signatory to the conventions OR not part of an army without a chain of command OR that doesn't fight by civilized rules of warfare IS NOT repeat IS NOT COVERED BY THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS. This is an accurate interpretation of the Geneva Conventions in regards to "unlawful combatants" (Geneva Convention terminology)... Bush NEVER condoned torture - merely asked for legal standings.
"Spied on Americans" You would prefer the Janet Reno form of not tapping such individuals as Mohammad Attah ? I might remind you that in the case of Aldrich Ames, Bill Clinton not only tapped Ames' phone without FISA warrant, but had PHYSICAL SEARCHES of Ames' house and car without any warrant. There goes that double standard again!
"Healthcareless Children" Has she not HEARD any of the debate? Bush has a problem with adults collecting money in a program supposedly for 'kids' and doesn't agree folks making 80K qualify as "poor." If he had let it go through, of course they'd be saying he was just trying to help his rich friends.
I'm sure Joan had no problem voting for a admited draft dodger who sent our boys to Bosnia, Kosovo, Haiti, and ran like a kicked dog when our boys were killed and dragged through the streets of Somalia... now she has a problem with Bush and Cheney?!?!?!?
::::::: Rolling eyes::::::: At least I can say I dislike BIG TIME how Bush has handled immigration... can Joan tell us one thing she and Bush agree about? Probably not - she's too much of a hater and an ideologue, and sadly, her ideals aren't about economic theory or racial integration ... her ideology is based on one single thing-HATRED. That is the truly sad thing about America - we have an entire political party with no grater goal or ideal than to hate George W. Bush.
Steve Crecelius
HI charles, I hope this email finds you well. I thought you would be interested in my response to person below defending Obamas lack of hand on his heart during the National Anthem. Perhaps read her email way below first.
Haven’t seen you for quite a while. Are you still in Denver or has Elvis left the city?
steve
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From: Steve Crecelius
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 10:22 PM
To: 'joanmsw@comcast.net'; JOE Scuba2000; ken.clark16@verizon.net; MMoore482@aol.com; waynesica@comcast.net; kirk.kopp.ctr@elmendorf.af.mil; Debbie Crecelius; CGiarratano@cherrycreekschools.org; JohnCowan320@comcast.net; jfw39@optonline.net; joescuba2000@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: FW: Fwd: All I really need to know about Obama
Apparently Joan only feels like an American when political or any other of the great debates are going her way. She seems unable to separate the concept of being a proud American and all that it stands for and the politics and politicians, we all seem to despise.
Regarding symbols, if they didn’t mean anything, we would still have Christmas Trees and the Manger in schools and public places. Yes, symbols and respect for the flag and our country does mean something and transcends past, current, and future politics, wars, and even standings in the world. And therefore, disrespect for those symbols does make a clear statement. One that I feel is Anti-American. Not anti left or anti right, just anti American. I do hope it is without dissent that it is my right to feel that way or any other way I want to feel and is the essence of what freedom is all about.
If Obama shows such disrespect for the symbols of our country, then how can we feel comfortable that he will respect what the country has always stood for. The flag has always stood for our country and its freedoms. And, how will he respect those who might stand against him once in possession of such great power as the presidency. Now Joan, that’s just fair and we can have every right to feel the way we do, just as you have the right to feel the way you do. It’s our country too and we are due our opinions.
Further, not only did the producer at CBS get immediately fired, but Dan Rather, anchor of several generations lost his credibility at CBS and ultimately his job for the so called AWOL story. The Bush AWOL story was simply proven false and no real evidence has been provided to show any reasonable person otherwise. Joan, I would hope that you or your loved one would not want to be falsely accused or have evidence falsified against you. Either you believe in or system of Justice or you don’t. Unless something else comes to our attention, this is a non-issue. No one cares anymore about it. It is old news so you need to just get over it.
In the final analysis, Joan has simply backed herself in the “Hate Bush” corner and thus, many of her opinions and thoughts are surely suspect. Bush is her president too, like it or not. President Clinton was my president like it or not. You must stand for something or you will fall for anything regardless of who happens to be President at any given time.
I believe Joan has also fallen for the “It’s Americas fault” crowd. She can disagree with the war, the president, and funding health care for children.
Her and Obama can certainly not use the flag on their stamps or have their hand on their heart, it is their right. There will never ever be a law against it.
What there will be is an America that stands for something including those freedoms and the symbols that represent it. Always has and always will. The constitution is not a left or right based document. There are other ways to disagree with our country’s place in the world. Joan’s view of someone who did not like Obama disrespecting the longstanding tradition of ones hand on ones heart as a racist is herself, lacking in respect for others rights, freedoms, and opinions. And, the word “racist” is a very strong and important word and people like Joan only dilute it because it gets over used and over time loses its true meaning.
And Joan, tell me about the time when you, or anyone you know has been “spied” on. Or why we can’t use reasonable techniques to get information vital to our safety. Is the system perfect? NO! Does the system change with Presidents, again No! One of every 5 people work for the government and few change their jobs when a new president comes along. The bottom line is that it is a big, bulky and yet beautiful system. It is good that change occurs slowly.
It is also important to note that regardless of whether one agrees with the war in the beginning or now, it is evident that there are forces in the world who have made it clear they want us to convert to Islam or die. Many, including the current president of Iran, believe that their own version of the second coming can be enhanced by creating more death and dismay. They honor death and not life. They are in battle with us in Iraq. The prize is a country, a country sitting on a quarter of the world’s oil reserves. Oil is power and money, and would in my estimation provide the means to buy those weapons of mass destruction. Unlike Vietnam, they WILL follow us home... and have already proven they can.
Obamas answer to the war is to simply leave Iraq. Another way of putting it, is to simply give those who have dedicated their lives to our destruction, a better means to do it. The issue to me is whether we go after this evil, or underestimate it and wait until they come to us. I am sorry, but it is certainly possible that 911 would look like a cake walk if this enemy of America is not stopped. There are many of us who rightfully and sensibly believe that Iraq is the battle front and to lose that battle front would be at our own peril. There is nothing new about war and certainly nothing new about evil and the longstanding goal of taking over the block, the country, or the world. History is full of evil using the power of religion and charisma to, in a cult and even forceful manner, influence the masses and then try to take that which is not theirs.
The country is like a child, you can not like some of the things it does, but you should still love it. Your hand on your heart is a simple way to display that love. Maybe the Joan’s of the world feel they punish America by not using stamps with the American flag on them. What symbol of America would they rather use? What other symbol might fall into place because the flag is no longer respected or honored. Who are they really punishing? Two hundred plus years later, who cares? I care!
My fear for our country is people like Joan who naively think freedom is free and that God and Country are the enemy. Whether you are religious or not, support the war or not, the failure of our country at any given point in time now or in the future, will not be based on politics, people running for president, thoughts on the war, etc. but rather where we stand together as Americans. It starts with the hand on our hearts.
steve
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From: joanmsw@comcast.net [mailto:joanmsw@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 8:52 PM
To: JOE Scuba2000; ken.clark16@verizon.net; MMoore482@aol.com; waynesica@comcast.net; kirk.kopp.ctr@elmendorf.af.mil; Debbie Crecelius; CGiarratano@cherrycreekschools.org; Steve Crecelius; JohnCowan320@comcast.net; jfw39@optonline.net; Joanmsw@comcast.net; joescuba2000@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: FW: Fwd: All I really need to know about Obama
I found this email racist and very upsetting. Would it be OK if Obama were Christian and did not wear an American flag lapel? Would he be OK if he did wear one, went to church, declared himself Christian and sent our young people to fight without soap much less protective equipment in a war based on lies? if he declared forms of torture to be OK, spied on American citizens declaring himself to be above the law, spent $500Billion in 5 years in this war while refusing to spend $35 billion in the next 5 years to provide health care to children. Do you know children with leukemia, juvenile diabetes etc whose parents work but have no insurance? I could go on and on. Vote for whomever you wish but PLEASE vote based on values, ethics, intelligence, platforms, not on symbols. I personally hate what is happening to our country right now, I refuse to use a stamp with a flag on it.
Neither Bush (who went AWOL) nor Cheney, two hawks, fought in the war of their (our) generation. Too busy with more important things. But they'll both wear all the American flags you'd like. Real Patriots.
I fear for our country every minute of every day!
Joan
-------------- Original message --------------
From: "JOE Scuba2000"
This guy is a real jerk. God save our country if he gets into office.
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From: tplbstarck@aol.com
To: Rdajun@aol.com, cleandean@comcast.net, kportzxla@aol.com, bobbyhall20@msn.com, chuckblood@aol.com, ttrogers@centurytel.net, MMoore482@aol.com, joescuba2000@hotmail.com
Subject: Fwd: All I really need to know about Obama
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 02:17:22 -0400
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>From: SMAKS
>To: JAN ROLLER
>Sent: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 6:45 pm
>Subject: Fw: All I really need to know about Obama
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>Subject: All I really need to know about Obama
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>I don't know how many of you saw this on TV, but I
>did. Notice Bill Richardson and Hillary during the playing of the National
>Anthem. I wondered at the time, "what the hell is this guy thinking?" Now that
>he has declared he will no longer wear the American Flag lapel pin (and that is
>his right and I support his right to make that decision) I understand how
>someone born a Muslim doesn't want to declare allegiance to OUR country. This is
>all I need to know about Obama.
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>The question is, how would he act as
>President? Perish the thought!
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